One of my favorite debates:
Is morality possible without religion?
Certainly. I believe the two are completely independent of one another. Sure, I suppose religion helps enforce morality, but so do laws. Is someone who doesn't break their moral code because they are promised an eternity in heaven more moral than an atheist who also obeys the moral laws of society? I don't think you could make that argument.
Then, people ask, how did morality come about?
Lets say, back in the early development of man, you murder someone in broad daylight. Other humans see this. They will not be your friend. You will not mate, you will not get a share in the food. They don't want to be murdered.
Or perhaps they killed him. Which would be an early and simple idea of morality that stays with us. Eye for an eye. Outdated and barbaric? Perhaps, though we are slowly evolving out of that.
If you stole something or raped someone, the same rules would apply. Though, I don't think they would rape you back as punishment.
What morality are we talking about here? The secular community may have a different set of morals than the religious community.
Like, no sex before marriage. How is this a moral code? If there is consent, how can it be a moral issue? How can consensual sex be judged as wrong or immoral? This is something I don't understand. The risk of spreading sexually transmitted diseases might be part of it, but does that make it a moral issue? There are ways to reduce the chance of transmitting said diseases. Is sex immoral without the intent of conception?
Is anything pleasurable immoral? A sin?
And how is marriage the barrier you must pass to have sex with someone? Is it the idea of eternal commitment? You have to have a ceremony and wear a ring to have sex with someone? Save yourself for the one special someone?
What if you aren't compatable. When you end up having sex it just doesn't feel right. I suppose this would work with the whole evil concept of sex, because you certainly wouldn't want to have it with your spouse.
Why is sex evil anyway? Disgusting even? Why is nudity viewed as the worst thing that can be in a film? Worse than violence even.
Everyone is going to see a naked body at some point, hopefully no one will see a violent murder.
And how is homosexuality immoral, a sin? Because you cannot reproduce? Is reproduction really all it comes down to? Is that the only important thing in religious morality? Perhaps that is why abortion is such a huge issue for the church.
I reject any so called moral codes that have to do with consensual sex. I just don't view it as evil. I have no reverence for sex. I just view it as enjoyable. Ha. This is a very sexual blog. I'll stop that talk now.
What do I view as morality? Any behavior that causes another animal pain. So, do I view eating meat as immoral? Yes. Do I still eat meat? Yes, and often. I don't view myself as a moral person, but I would like to be.
Please feedback. You Christian types, tell me why sex before marriage is so evil! I'd like to know.
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"Everyone is going to see a naked body at some point, hopefully no one will see a violent murder."
I really liked this point. I had never really thought about it before. But could it have to do with reality? When someone is naked on TV or in a movie, there is no doubt as to the realness of the nudity. But if someone is shot or killed, one could suspend his or her belief. It's just film. It's not real. While nudity can be faked, it's usually not. Except in Beowulf.
I think that is a valid point.
However, I still don't understand whats so wrong about seeing a boob? If a child sees a boob it is not going to destroy their sweet little universe. They will be very happy. When I was a prepubescent boy, one of my goals was to see a boobie. Still is... Telling your child that nudity is disgusting and wrong is the worst message you can give a child.
Unless you want them to become a minister or something, then they can preach how evil boobies are.
As you know, I'm a Christian, but I don't think sex before marriage is evil. I guess some people would say that means I'm not a Christian, but really, I think sex is just a part of life. And as long as you're smart about who you have sex with, I don't think it matters if you love them or not, sometimes you just wanna have a good time. A lot of parents would argue that point, but I'm pretty sure that's just because they don't want their daughters to get pregnant before they're married.
Also, nudity can be really disgusting and wrong, example: the fat guy in borat. EWE. haha. I also think it's in how the nudity is presented, sometimes it's really raunchy and offensive, and sometimes it can be beautiful. It just depends on the movie.
If God exists, as Christianity describes Him, then He would have created everything in the universe; everything in existence. Did He not create everything? Or were parts of His creation just perverted by others? He created sex. But why were Adam and Eve ashamed of their nudity? God made them that way; they were naked when He made them. Their sin made them feel ashamed, according to the Bible. But if they hadn't done anything wrong, they never would've felt guilty about it. So does that mean that there is anything inherently wrong with sex or nudity? How can something God created be inherently bad? And why were they ashamed of being naked once they had knowledge? Did the knowledge make them ashamed, or the sin? Is knowledge a sin in itself? God told them not to eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. He created people capable of knowledge; He gave them the means to learn. But He didn't want them to learn? How could knowledge be inherently bad if He created it? Obviously it was bad that they disobeyed Him. In the beginning, they were ignorant and they were not ashamed. But then, they gained knowledge and they were ashamed. They developed a consciousness. That is all that makes us different from the other animals, right? So God created us to rule over all the other animals, but wanted to keep us in the same state? And knowing good and evil makes us bad? How can we even be good without knowing evil? I've heard it said that God gave us free will because He didn't want to make us automatons, but isn't that what He was trying to do anyways? In the Gospels, Christ says He wants us to love Him like little children love. Then why did He give us free will? Little children don't really have free will. They believe everything they hear because they don't know any better. Jesus wants us to have a pure, accepting faith. He doesn't want us to be bunch of doubting Thomas's. But if God created everything in the universe, didn't he create the capacity in our minds to ask these questions? If He created us, then He also created human nature. And it's our nature to ask, to disbelieve, to be skeptical. If God exists, then He must have created even the Socratic method. So basically, He created us, He knew we would sin, and we did, and now He wants us to accept Him again; and He created us for His pleasure. He's making us question everything, so we can accept Him. But is He? He didn't want us to have knowledge of good and evil, so why would He want us to question Him? He created doubt, He created the circumstances for doubt, but He doesn't want us to doubt; He wants us to accept. So, He makes these creatures that He wants to follow His orders, then He wants to test them to see if they believe in Him. I don't know, I don't have any of the answers; I'm just asking questions. I'm just trying to sort this out.
About nudity:
We actually had that subject pop up in com. gov today. We argued if public nudity should be allowed. Along with that, with state saying you can't, isn't that violating your personal freedoms?
My opinion is rather simple. It is not going to physically or mentally hurt anyone. Sadly, we live in a society where taboos such as nudity is a bad thing. I'm not saying that I'm a nudist or have any intention of being nude. But honestly, let's look at all of the cultures, even today, that are okay with nudity. Much of Africa and South America. That's their culture. They have been that way for very long.
If America, or Europe for that matter, didn't view this is a bad thing, I believe it would drastically change governing.
As for sex before marriage: this is without a doubt (at least remaining from) religious beliefs. Much like blue laws, it was at one time because of the huge Christian impact on America. Our parents were taught sex before marriage is bad because of their parents from their parents. That's the way they were all brought up to believe. And to stick to "modernization", I feel they have to say that it's a morality thing. No teenage pregnancy, STDs and so on. Of course it's not moral for us non-Christian folk. It's simply a way of thinking.
And I am tired.
I completely agree with you Max. Thanks for the comment.
I think STDs and teenage pregnancy have a lot to do with education. Specifically abstinence only education. It simple does not work. Teenagers will always have sex, so they must be educated to always have SAFE sex.
It's one of the worst kept secrets in America that our sex education is terribly deficient. Abstinence-only education is a complete joke: it does nothing to address the problems of teenage pregnancy or STDs. Teenagers will always have sex, even if they are strongly encouraged to be abstinent (for example, the progeny of a governor who shall remain nameless). I agree with Mark, again.
People say there is no such thing as safe sex, only safer sex. And that's true: just as there's no such thing as safe driving, only safer driving. Even people who use seat belts and air bags and are sober and are not distracted still have accidents. As long as there are cars and teenagers, there will always be car accidents and there will always be teenage pregnancies, no matter how much education is available.
Would you let people who have zero training, no experience, and no idea how to protect themselves drive cars? Of course you wouldn't. Then why would you want people to have sex with totally insufficient education about how to make it safer?
Thanks Alex, there isn't much I love more than a good analogy, and that was a very good one.
Lol, I borrowed it from Alec. It's his analogy. I just basically repeated what he told me, but I wish I could claim credit for that one, it is a good analogy. I just expanded on his point a little bit.
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